Comment behaviour: How far is too far?

by Mathew on November 18, 2009 · Comments

Updated:

Kurt Greenbaum has apologized for overreacting in his original response to this incident, although he doesn’t explicitly say that he is sorry for calling the school and indirectly causing someone to lose their job.

As someone whose job involves thinking about our social-media policies and our approach to comment behaviour, I’m always looking at what other newspapers and media outlets are doing, and today I came across a case that crossed a line — for me, at least — in terms of how to deal with problem commenters. It involved a vulgar comment made by a user at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch’s website, and the response by the site’s director of social media, Kurt Greenbaum.

According to Greenbaum’s blog post (which was mirrored on his personal blog), someone posted a comment on a story in which they used a colloquial or slang term for female genitalia. It was deleted, but then was reposted. Greenbaum says he noticed that the comment alert from Wordpress showed that it came from a nearby school. So Greenbaum called the school, and they asked him to send them the email with the comment, which he apparently did. About six hours later, he says, the school called and said that an employee had been confronted and that he had resigned.

Am I the only one who thinks that doing this goes way beyond the normal course of editorial behaviour? I’ve been moderating blog comments and story comments for several years now, both as a blogger and as the Globe and Mail’s social-media editor (or Communities Editor, as we call the job), and there is no way that I would contact someone’s workplace about a comment unless they had done something extremely egregious — such as making death threats, or repeatedly making abusive comments.

We’ve had hundreds or even thousands of such comments, most of which are much worse than the one Greenbaum is talking about, and I have never contacted someone’s workplace, even when it was obvious that the person in question worked for the federal government.

I know I’m not the only one to see Greenbaum’s behaviour as over-the-top, because a number of people agreed with me on Twitter when I asked the same question, and just as many or more took the social-media editor to task in the comments on his blog post. One commenter said:

“You guys don’t like moderating so you call his work and get him fired. Nice. Happy holidays.”

to which Greenbaum replied:

“Yeah, you caught me! I made him log on to his computer at work, visit STLtoday.com’s Talk of the Day, read the item, type a vulgarity and hit the “submit” key. Interesting perspective. Thanks for your contribution.”

Other readers said:

“What an abuse of power, Mr. Greenbaum!!! So is the Post Dispatch now a Gestapo Agent? What a sick and terrible thing you did to this employee in an economy where he probably doesn’t stand a chance in getting another job! I recommend that YOU get fired for abuse of power!!!!! See how YOU feel!!!”

and

“YOU are the director of social media? tools to be leveraged to get businesses closer to their customers? what an awful story and it’s even more embarassing that you squawk about it after the fact. the lesson is: be careful StlToday website visitors – never know when a bored employee will pursue some bizarre investigation that could cost you your job.”

and Greenbaum replies:

“Defend the guy who posted the vulgarity all you want. I’m not regulating someone’s thought. He can think whatever he wants. I’m moderating our boards. Follow our guidelines and this won’t be a problem for any of you. Remember, I said it was a school, right? It could have been a student. I didn’t know who it was. I just thought the school might like to know about it. I sleep fine at night.”

What do you think of what Greenbaum did in this case? Did he overstep his bounds as the moderator of the St. Louis Today site, or do you think he was justified in what he did? Let me know in the comments.

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  • tremaine_lea
    I'm actually on board with the moderator in this case. It wasn't an isolated instance of a single comment. After moderating the initial vulgarity, the poster returned and reposted it.

    What I find remarkable is that the school invested the time to track down the comment poster, and had enough logging turned on to identify a user based on the IP address and timestamp.

    I find it even more remarkable that any conversation the school had with the poster went past 'we've had a complain from $company about a comment you posted, please don't use school resources for that.'

    That it went as far as a staff member being let go is mind boggling. I have to admit to being curious as to whether the staffer was a teacher or 'other'. I suspect Greenbaum, on contacting the school, fully expected this to be the act of an immature student in need of an education about just how anonymous the internet isn't.
  • Caspar
    The article does state the person who posted the comment resigned, rather than was fired.
  • This is absolutely ridiculous. Greenbaum's response was over the top to even contact the school. Fortunately, I don't think he is typical of the way most newspapers or websites are handling their comment moderation.

    If it was that big of an issue, he could have either just made sure that particular word never appeared on the site, or that the person leaving those comments was banned.

    However, based on Greenbaum's response it makes me think that he's probably overreacted like this before, and that these "colloquial terms" were justifiably directed at him.
  • howardowens
    I respect Kurt and think he's one of the brightest people doing what he does, but I wouldn't contact an employer over a vulgarity.

    Now, I have outed (publicly) sock puppets, but to me that goes more to both protecting the integrity of the site and the notion that the public has a right to know when a political figure is using false identities to push an agenda.

    But for items that might be characterized as no more than breaking a site rule, that's a private matter. I rarely even discuss disciplinary actions in public, among the other members, even spouses, etc.
  • Greenbaum is too pleased with himself, but contacting the admin of a system being used in a perceived-to-be-abusive way has been going on forever. We don't know what history or context there might be, but the school's response seems extreme.
  • As someone who has run NNTP newsgroups, web forums and blogs I know that there are enough tools out there that would have enabled Greenbaum to do his moderating duties without deleting the post originally and most definitely without having to contact the employer. Ask any moderator/admin who knows what they are doing and they will tell you the same thing. Whether it be by using obscenity filters to editing the comment itself there are plenty of alternatives.

    What Greenbaum did was wrong but as well I think the behavior of the employer is also wrong even if they did post from a company computer. Sure reprimand the employee but don't fire the preson over it.
  • Would Greenbaum have made the call if the comment had come from a coffee shop's IP address or a library or a fast food joint? If it had been anything other than a school, would Greenbaum have made the call? Should he now make the call every single time something like this happens, no matter where the IP address is, or are schools a special case? What about courthouses? City hall?

    Where do you draw the line now?
  • tremaine_lea
    If it's repetitive abusive behaviour, why not? Shouldn't the network/system administrator be aware of a problem coming from a network they are ultimately responsible for?

    The school's reaction seems pretty over the top, but it appears the staff member resigned. Whether that's a real resignation or a 'quit or we'll fire you' is another question entirely.

    Finding contact information for an IP is, and has long been, a pretty straightforward task. The smaller the organization, the easier it is to follow up on abuse. A school is pretty small, and is likely to have properly registered netblocks with associated contact information.

    A coffee shop is likely subscribed to a local provider, who may or may not investigate and follow up on complaints. If they had service through AOL or RoadRunner, you'd pretty much get an automated response that they received your complaint and nothing else.
  • I'll agree that it's easy enough to trace an IP these days, but what concerns me more is the precedent this sets for the Post-Dispatch's moderation procedures. I suspect, too, that some bias crept in when the moderator found out the comments were coming from a school.

    But as for notifying sys admins of a problem on a network they're responsible for, I have to wonder what the problem is? Maybe that user was visiting sites he should not have been visiting on the clock, but that's not a network problem. That's a usage policy problem.

    The user violated the online community agreement by being vulgar, as Greenbaum said in his responses. That's an issue between a single user and the newspaper, and the network admin running the commenter's IP address should not have been involved.

    Of course, I haven't read the Post-Dispatch's online terms of service. Perhaps there's a provision for this sort of notification written in? Does anyone know?
  • tremaine_lea
    "The user violated the online community agreement by being vulgar, as Greenbaum said in his responses. That's an issue between a single user and the newspaper, and the network admin running the commenter's IP address should not have been involved."

    I think the reality is that it's between the commenter, the newspaper moderator, the newspaper itself, and anyone who saw the comment either on the site or blogged/tweeted/retweeted elsewhere.

    As I've noted elsewhere, there are very few effective options in blocking access to a site like that other than contacting the netblock administrator of the IP address associated with the problem and asking them to resolve the issue. Often with the unspoken caveat that if they don't resolve the problem, measures such as blocking the IP or legal action may be taken (depending on the severity of the problem obviously). It's trivial for an internet user to bypass a block of an IP address by using something like TOR, or any number of free or pay proxy services, or even chained proxy servers.

    In this case, blocking the IP would have blocked an entire school from accessing the newspaper site, not just the person causing the problem. Greenbaum had very little information to act on. 1. Someone posted inappropriately from an IP. 2. After correctly moderating the post by removing it, the same someone repeated the action from the same IP. At this point Greenbaum has these two bits of information, in addition to the timestamps of when they occurred. That's it.


    Terms of Use:
    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/help/stories.n...

    Specifically:
    # You automatically waive any claim that any use of such content violates any of your rights, including privacy rights, publicity rights, moral rights or any other right, including the right to approve the way we use such content.
    # You are responsible for the content of all Submissions and acknowledge that third parties may hold you responsible for content related claims including libel, invasion of privacy, misappropriation of likeness and disclosure of confidential information.

    In addition to these two rather sweeping items, there are these as well:

    It is a condition of your use that you do not:

    * Include any information that is false, misleading or inaccurate.
    * Use the Site for any unlawful purpose or to transmit any material that contains a virus.
    * Use the Site to encourage others to engage in illegal activities or activities that could cause injury to persons or property.
    * Use the Site to upload, post, e-mail, transmit or otherwise make available content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright, privacy, publicity or other proprietary rights of any party.
    * Use the Site to upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available content that is harmful to minors in any way, or that is harassing, harmful, threatening, abusive, vulgar, obscene, defamatory, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.

    Under the ToS of the Post-Dispatch, they can pretty much do whatever they like. Which is pretty typical of any site that can actually afford a lawyer or law firm to cover their butts and protect and extend as many of the corporate rights as they can. I honestly find most online ToS pretty vile and intrusive, and that we as the general public are far too accepting of the restrictions placed on us. We just skip on over the fine print and pretend the internet is still a free and wild wild west kind of place where we can speak our minds freely.

    It's been 10+ years since that was genuinely true.
  • Definitely an over-the-top response. Nobody should lose their job over saying a bad word in a blog comment. I don't see why the comment couldn't have simply been edited. Also, maybe the comment was posted again because the poster thought they did it wrong the first time...since it disappeared. Even if it was a student...so?
  • It's utterly outrageous. You are all reacting to the word, but what if it was something else the person did? Like express a political opinion that was unpopular, or admit to a psychiatric illness, or say they occasionally use pot?

    There are loads of things that an editor might find objectionable, but beyond deletion or banning, who the heck are they to call an employer!

    What on earth has happened to free speech? Who cares if it's vulgar? The only restrictions on free speech involve death threats, etc, and those are very very limited.

    Frankly, in the case of threats or criminal acts, an editor should call the police or the paper's lawyers, and not.one.other.soul. Newspapers aren't lawyers or police investigators or enforcers of public morality and they have no right to even try. You don't want to be the arm of the police, well then, stay out of becoming cops.

    I hope this editor gets sued. And thrown out of journalism permanently. The day that a bloody newspaper stops defending free speech has come....hell has frozen over, at least in St. Louis.
  • But you give up certain rights when you use a newspaper's Web site and agree to abide by its terms of service -- whether you've read them or not. Under most of those agreements, vulgarity is prohibited. "Free speech" isn't really an issue since you don't have a constitutional right to comment on a privately owned Web site.
  • *Headdesk*

    Actually, those parts of private websites likely aren't legal, because whether you believe it or not, I actually do have the right to free speech EVERYWHERE in Canada, or in this case, in the US. In the air, in buildings, in the House of Commons, in other people's homes, in every square millimeter and mb of Canada. Just because there hasn't been a court case, really doesn't mean much. Have a chat with the ACLU. I bet they are salivating over this one. If each citizen is equally allowed to comment, with no pay privileges, and it's not a private club, and the only restriction is content, you'll have a problem.

    But it doesn't matter in this case, because the whole point of newspapers and journalism IS the free and unrestricted right to political discussion. Newspapers say they are different, that they have certain standards and are above the fray. They say they believe in the free and unrestricted flow of information. That sunshine is the best disinfection. They say that they are the last defenders of free speech and that they have a special relationship with the public. And a special duty to their community. Yet when it suits them to betray? Not so much.

    And just because it's "bad word" means nothing. Define vulgarity, go for it. Guess what, different words mean different things in different states. Try asking for a napkin in a restaurant in some parts of the US. In one place you'll be handed a paper to wipe your face, in another you'll be slapped and told to get out for discussing items for menstruation with your waitress. Cross cultures and languages and you will get a million different definitions of vulgarity. Hey, according to Facebook, breastfeeding moms are obscene and vulgar. And yes, they are being sued.

    The bigger problem is that when a newspaper does this, they play a dangerous game. The public will now be afraid, what if I linger too long on the website and read at work? Will I get tracked and told on? What if the editor doesn't like what I write as a comment because he's a Teabagger and I'm an Obama fan? Will he tell my boss, who might also be a Teabagger?

    Hmmm, maybe comments and clicks and views dry up, thereby threatening ad revenue. Maybe the newspaper is seen as less trusted. Maybe the next time the newspaper promises confidentiality to a source, they aren't believed.

    Maybe if you preach it, you have to live it.
  • I agree: Live as you preach, and as I've said in other comments here, I think this sets a tricky precedent for the paper -- one that muddles journalism with the enforcement of corporate policy.
  • tremaine_lea
    You have the right to free speech everywhere, except where you don't. Freedom of speech is a restriction on government, not private organizations or individuals.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    It's not Congress limiting speech here, it's a private company on their own servers - they are perfectly within their rights to do it.

    "The public will now be afraid, what if I linger too long on the website and read at work? Will I get tracked and told on? What if the editor doesn't like what I write as a comment because he's a Teabagger and I'm an Obama fan? Will he tell my boss, who might also be a Teabagger?"

    If they are at work, it's pretty likely that's already being tracked by their employer. What sites they visited, when they visited, how long they spent on the site, whether or not they submitted a comment ... perhaps even what that comment was depending on what type of logging they use. It's entirely possible this school staffer would have ended up resigning regardless of what the newspaper did - do they run a daily/weekly/monthly report of their weblogs looking for certain words?

    Perhaps what people should *really* be worried and upset about is that this level of monitoring is already in place and utterly pervasive. Should it be this easy to track down someone making a comment on a website? It's pretty clear the head of IT had little problem identifying who it was based on nothing more than the school's external IP address and a timestamp. Which means the school monitors all outbound traffic to websites, record who is logged on on the network and the associated IP address they were assigned internally, and are able to easily correlate that information.
  • And a newspaper is bound by its ToS and Privacy Policy, too - which was egregiously violated in this case. Nothing in the contract says "we'll call your boss if we don't like what you say."

    I've asked Greenbaum a few questions on his post, which he hasn't answered yet. Mainly, how did he "notice" that the IP belonged to a school? Was it a public school - an arm of the gov't? (From his use of the term headmaster, I'd say no.)

    Dozens of people, including me, used the word he found so vulgar in their comments on his post. Has he looked up the IP address associated with every one? He didn't delete my comment, he merely starred out the word.

    As for it being a repeat violation, many of the commenters say it was removed and reposted within a matter of moments. Given the general shoddiness of many newspaper sites, it's more than conceivable that the OP thought that his comment hadn't gone through.

    And really, Greenbaum works in a newsroom. How many of his colleagues would have the same answer to the question about the strangest thing you've ever eaten? Please.

    I wish in my time moderating comments, I had so little to do that I could waste a moment tracking down a poster who used a single, not-so-very vulgar word.

    The entire news business is built on the trust readers have for their source of information. Start screwing with that and you've got a situation even worse than what we're in. If commenters think that a moderator will go running to an authority whenever they feel like it, who will step up to be a whistleblower?
  • tremaine_lea
    "I wish in my time moderating comments, I had so little to do that I could waste a moment tracking down a poster who used a single, not-so-very vulgar word."

    Since it's been noted that they use wordpress, noticing would have been pretty straightforward since the system sends an email to moderate all comments, or comments with certain criteria being met.

    Example:
    Author : js (IP: xx.205.207.999 , 25.207.205.999cfl.res.rr.com)
    E-mail : redacted@yahoo.com
    URL :
    Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=...

    The comment author's IP address and reverse dns is shown, and a whois link to ARIN provided that you just have to click on that provides contact information for the network in question. I would imagine the school's name was in it's reverse dns.

    The other consideration is if the newspaper is potentially placed at legal risk due to 'adult' language. If there aren't sufficient warnings about language and a mechanism in place to get a 'I'm 18 or older' response from a site viewer, it's not inconceivable some self-righteous religious group/person would try for a civil case against them. Which is a heck of a lot more expensive than calling the contact number listed in ARIN for a network to say 'hi, someone on your network is being a bit of an idiot. Would you mind terribly having a word with them?'

    Don't get me wrong, there's plenty that can be done right to avoid this kind of situation. Banning certain words, or technically enforcing word replacement on undesirable words is built right into wordpress - it just has to be enabled and configured.

    It also could have been avoided by the comment poster not being an irritating jerk in the first place. I'm honestly puzzled why the staff member who was identified resigned, or accepted being pushed into resigning. If they really are in the right, they'd have a hell of a wrongful dismissal case. Aside from just standing up for themselves to say wtfbbq it was just one word.

    "And really, Greenbaum works in a newsroom. How many of his colleagues would have the same answer to the question about the strangest thing you've ever eaten? Please."

    Probably more than a few. The question is how many of them would say it and risk the sexual harassment suit? Or would say it without a manager giving them the stink eye and having a chat about appropriate behaviour in the workplace and how they're risking getting the paper sued for not providing a workplace free of sexual harassment. Perhaps even tacitly encouraging the behaviour by not addressing it.

    I loathe that kind of political correctness and suppression of communication. But if the comment poster had supplied an email address instead of trying to stay anonymous, I suspect an email would have been sent to *him* rather than the admin clicking on the whois link to get a phone number and starting farther up the food chain than may have been necessary.

    Why is it the head of IT at this school had so much free time for this? Why was it taken to the school headmaster for discipline instead of just approaching the idiot and giving them a verbal warning or even just forwarding the Wordpress email they received as evidence with a note attached saying 'knock it off you idiot, you're on a school network'.

    Contacting a network administrator isn't remotely unusual. I used to work for a very sizable ISP on it's abuse team, and we received in the neighbourhood of 5000 email complaints a day about various activity on our network - and we'd have to track down which account had the reported IP at that date and time, and then contact the account holder to let them know about the complaint.
  • Legal risk due to adult language? Last time I checked, we had a Constitution. Not to mention, the word in question is one that is pretty damn common on television.
  • tremaine_lea
    You mean those tv shows with warnings at the beginning about scenes of violence, adult language, viewer discretion is advised? Those are put there to protect the broadcasters et al from being sued by overzealous PC idiots.
  • Rob
    Why did you redact an IP, yet not redact the same IP easily visible in the host name?
  • tremaine_lea
    I didn't redact an IP, I redacted the username portion of the email address. And if you're at all familiar with IP addresses, you'll quickly notice that instead of redacting it that it's completely invalid.
  • Earley Days Yet
    A man lost his JOB over a rude comment on a news site? I think the response was unwarranted. As someone said earlier, the repost issue may have simply been confusion rather than defiance. Even so, no matter what, the paper's responsibility goes no further than its own site. Ban commenter, edit comment, block IP - sure. Contact someone's *employer*? Nope, can't support that.
  • Really defines the entire reality vs virtual reality thing. These days as the computer is more and more the primary means of communication, I think these kinds of things can happen. Plenty of employers do social networking searches on perspective employees to get a gauge of what they are about. People are held liable ( ironic term ) for their statements online.

    Do I think the moderator should have called the site? No. Do I think the poster should have been more careful, using an anonymous account etc, yes. Just because your on a computer doesn't mean you can do whatever you want these days.

    Can the law keep up with technology? - CNN.com http://bit.ly/upi7N

    Enough said right?
  • phil shapiro
    Greenbaum did not overstep his bounds at all. What you say in public is a representation of who you are. Use the same language on message boards that you use with your own family or co-workers. If you feel like "anything goes," well you're right -- one of the things that might go is your job.
  • 1984 finally coming. Love it! I say cameras every where... Anything you say can and WILL be used against you.
  • I'm inclined to say that if you engage in public discourse - and posting comments to an open forum on a website is clearly public - you accept the possiblity that you will be identified and held accountable for what you say. If everyone actively realised that when they posted the quality of public discourse online would be spectacularly higher. So the school happened to hear about the comment from the editor of the site. Hypothetically they could have identified the same guy from username, idiom, content or whatever themselves. Stand on a soapbox and shout vulgarities to passersby and if someone recognises you, you'll have to own up to what you said. Good.

    (That said, the very worst the guy should face for public profanity is trivial social censure from the sort of dreadful people who take offence at profanity. The school over-reacted ridiculously and if Canadian employment law - about which I know nothing - is anything like UK employment law I trust he will take them to the cleaners and enjoy a very happy few years idling on his settlement while he looks for his next job.)
  • From the schools end of things, from the last paragraph of Kurt's Blog post: "About six hours later, I heard from the school’s headmaster. The school’s IT director took a shine to the challenge. Long story short: Using the time-frame of the comments, our website location and the IP addresses in the WordPress e-mail, he tracked it back to a specific computer. The headmaster confronted the employee, who resigned on the spot."
    Not sure if one small vulgarity would result in this response. We'll probably never know, but there must be more to it. History of abuse of work time and comuter use policies? On a final warning maybe? Headmaster/ITguy had an inkling in advance who to ask? If you pass on behavour like this to a school you kind of expect due process there.
  • Seems a bit over the top, if the user persists posting inappropriate comments just block the IP address, problem solved!
  • Personally, I'm kind of scared to reply to this post in case you don't like what i have to say and rat me out to my employer.
  • Ned Flanders
    Pretty sure it would be illegal in Canada to do this - privacy laws would likely generally prevent the disclosure to the school of the information in the email.

    I haven't read the Globe's terms or privacy policy in detail, but I suspect this disclosure would be illegal under them.

    Many people who've commented on this issue seem to justify the disclosure because the language constituted a breach of the site's terms. I just don't understand how it is we've become so indifferent to privacy that we think it can be given up - with all of the serious consequences that that might cause - based on something so trivial as a breach of web terms of use. Breaking the law, or dangers to a person's safety, or an emergency - those all seem like they could be good reasons. But web terms of use? Most of the same people who claim that that breach is serious misconduct that justifies disclosure probably breach web terms of use on a daily basis (look at your ISP agreement, people), and would be just as likely to mock them as being over-lawyered and silly, as they would be to hail them as the best thing since Magna Carta.
  • tremaine_lea
    "I haven't read the Globe's terms or privacy policy in detail, but I suspect this disclosure would be illegal under them."

    Disclosure of what? An IP and timestamp aren't protected information under either Federal or Provincial privacy laws.

    I'm intimately familiar with my ISP's ToS and AUP agreements - I enforced them as the team lead for about 3 years. If I breached a sites ToS while a visitor on their servers, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to get a form letter of one kind or another giving me a warning about it.

    Which is as far as this should have gone. A warning to the end user. Whether the school received the complaint via email or phone, a warning is really the only appropriate thing to have done. If a paper ignores abusive behaviour on their site, it becomes a legal liability for them. It also engenders a kind of community where eventually only abusive and jerk-like behaviour is seen because the average person doesn't want to sift through pages of vulgarity (whatever they define that as) to get their content and participate in a discussion.
  • It was an abuse of power. If the comment was beyond the pale, he should call the police; otherwise, he should simply delete it. If the commenter persists (where 'persists' is not defined as 'does it twice' - come on, be reasonable), ban the IP.
  • tremaine_lea
    Banning an IP is a largely useless measure in stopping abusive posting. Between the use of TOR or proxy servers or chained proxy servers, it's trivial to work around a block based on IP address.

    Banning the IP would also block every other user at that school who are behind that IP. So no, not a reasonable, fair, or effective solution. Contacting the owner of the netblock the IP is part of is the one method available that is likely to result in stopping the problem, whether that be through user education (which is what SHOULD have happened) or other measures. The school could have easily given a verbal warning, a written warning, a warning in tandem with blocking access from his school log in to the specific site and so on.
  • tremaine_lea
    Banning an IP is a largely useless measure in stopping abusive posting. Between the use of TOR or proxy servers or chained proxy servers, it's trivial to work around a block based on IP address.

    Banning the IP would also block every other user at that school who are behind that IP. So no, not a reasonable, fair, or effective solution. Contacting the owner of the netblock the IP is part of is the one method available that is likely to result in stopping the problem, whether that be through user education (which is what SHOULD have happened) or other measures. The school could have easily given a verbal warning, a written warning, a warning in tandem with blocking access from his school log in to the specific site and so on.
  • Hmm, remind me never to call Greenbaum out if I ever share the same bar space with him. Heaven forbid I think he's talking tosh and say so - first he'd have me thrown out the bar, then probably call all the cabs not to pick me up, then the fast food places not to serve me on the way home, then my work...

    Way over the top and akin to Big Brother censorship.
  • jl
    I want to know what happened after the comment was (presumably) deleted for the second time.
    Did Kurt block the IP, or close commenting? Or did he simply delete the comment again, after which the user didn't repost it for a 3rd time?
    If so, then clearly the matter should have been done and over.

    If the poster had continued to repeatedly post, or made increasingly vulgar, or threatening comments, then he would potentially have cause to do something about it.

    Instead Mr. Greenbaum decided to take matters into his own hand, in direct violation of his own paper's privacy policy.

    While the school may have said the employee 'resigned', it's most likely that he was simply given the choice of firing or resigning. The school probably has a policy of using school computers for personal use, which, combined with the vulgarity would give then probably enough leverage to convince him it was in his best interests to 'resign'.

    But whether the employee violated the school's code is moot. The question is whether the Mr. Greenbaum was right to have provided the information.
  • tremaine_lea
    "Instead Mr. Greenbaum decided to take matters into his own hand, in direct violation of his own paper's privacy policy. "

    Wait what? Unlike many of the commenters who try and let themselves off the hook with a 'I haven't read the policy, but...' ; I *did* read the policy, and what Greenbaum did is entirely consistent with it.

    Go closer to the top of this thread - I've not only posted a link to their policy, I've included the relevant snippets from it.

    Any arguments about the commenters privacy are moot however. Whether in Canada or the US, an IP address and timestamp are not protected information under any provincial or federal privacy law.
  • Stephen O.
    Some St. Louis blog have been covering the issue of comments at the online Post-Dispatch for some time. This incident is getting all the exposure, the hateful, racist comments can be found at stltoday.com every day and no moderator addresses them. THAT'S the issue.

    http://stltomorrow.org
    http://www.stlurbanworkshop.com/2009/11/saint-l...
  • tremaine_lea
    That's definitely *an* issue. Has it generated as much outrage as this though? Or is it just that Mr. Greenbaum had the audacity to finally act, and people are in shock from it.

    I guess what will be interesting is if they suddenly start maintaining a standard, or if they'll continue to pick and choose what gets past the human and technical filters.
  • I'll add a comment about the 'resigning' part. Likely he was offered the chance to resign or be fired.

    As for Kurt. It's easy. He overreacted. The Post comments often swing way worse than using a slang word for female genitalia. Racial slurs are common. Outrageous and slanderous comments are made hourly. Those are rarely moderated.

    Kurt should just admit he overreacted and move on. He's already struggling to establish himself as a wise and knowing social media guru in St. Louis. This will be like a nail in his coffin with the locals.

    Folks violate the terms of service of the Post all the time. THis is the first incident where I'm aware that Kurt over stepped normal behavior for moderators. Having been a moderator, even where kids, doctors, and law enforcement were involved, I've never felt compelled to contact parents, employers or the cops over foul language.
  • Couldn't Greenbaum have simply blocked the IP address?

    My guess, he's angling for a book deal. In some quarters, this guy will be hailed as a hero. I wonder if he's enlisted a press agent yet.
  • As a news content moderator, I think my responsability is to contact the authorities when I receive illegal comments (pedophilia, negationnism...). Surely not to be a kind of righter of wrongs. It's a disgrace.
  • tremaine_lea
    Actually Antoine that would be much better left in the hands of your IT department, preferably your IT group responsible specifically for security. They will, hopefully, be familiar with how to handle problems like that.

    See my reply to benlucier - http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2009/11/18/com...
  • benlucier
    I'm against the moderator's actions, mostly from a time management and liability perspective.

    First, if I were his employer, I wouldn't Greenbaum wasting his time taking the moderation that level. Just delete it. Looking up the IP address, finding the phone number, explaining the situation to the school all took time. It would have been faster and more efficient to just delete the offensive comment, even if it needed to be deleted 4 or 5 times.

    Second, where does this put Greenbaum and his employer from a liability perspective? Again as Greenbaum's employer, operating in the litigious United States, I would be implementing policies that limit my exposure to potential lawsuits that could be borne out of this sort of thing.
  • tremaine_lea
    The standard practice in dealing with 'abuse' (however that term is ultimately defined by an organization) is to send an email to the RFC specified contact address of abuse@domain with the required detail to enable them to investigate and take action to resolve the problem. In this case that should have been both the Wordpress email Greenbaum referenced *and* the snippet of webserver logs
    to corroborate it.

    In this case, a phone call was certainly out of the norm. If Mr Greenbaum had simply followed standard practice, he likely wouldn't be getting the heat he's dealing with right now. Frankly, it's something he should have been passing off to the Post-Dispatch IT department to deal with. Moderation should involve approving or disallowing posts. It's not so much that what Mr Greenbaum did was wrong - it's that he was the wrong person at the Post-Dispatch to be doing it.

    The bigger problem in my view is the school. Firing or requesting the staffers resignation seems extreme, but who knows what the history was. The real problem is that they followed up with Mr. Greenbaum to share specific results of their investigation. What would have been appropriate is a template email with some version of "We've investigated your report and taken corrective action to resolve it."

    That's it.
  • Jason Blue-Sexton
    After reading all the comments here, I'd dearly love to know for whom tremaine_lea moderates/manages comments because re report to his/her employer might well be in order!
  • tremaine_lea
    That'd be a pretty short report Jason, I'm a self employed contractor ;) That said, if you've read the rest of my comments you'll also have realized that I was responsible for resolving complaints received from people just like Mr. Greenbaum.

    The difference is that because I'm a professional, I would never have told Mr. Greenbaum anything aside from 'we've investigated and resolved the issue.' The school (whether it was the headmaster or the head of IT) should never have responded with anything more detailed. Certainly not the status of the commenters employment.

    People *should* be outraged. They should be outraged that an organization would terminate employment or accept a resignation for something this small. They should be outraged that the school shared that information with a party who by rights shouldn't be privileged with it. They should be concerned at the level of monitoring necessary to make it possible to so easily track it down.

    The only thing Mr. Greenbaum has done wrong is gloat after the fact. Gloating about the incident is just gauche and uncalled for. It smacks of immature childish taunting.

    That he he reported a ToS violation of the newspapers website to the administrator responsible for the IP address it came from should be a complete non-issue. It's the most effective and reliable way to ensure the person actually responsible for the problem is contacted and stops.

    The gloating is just out of line and unprofessional. I'm just amazed that the level of vitriol being spent on Mr. Greenbaum isn't also being directed at the organization that terminated the man's employment. They're the ones who forced or otherwise accepted the resignation - a gross overreaction to what happened. A simple warning (or even adding a written warning to his employment record) should have sufficed.

    And any anger about violation of the man's privacy should be also directed at the school. And IP address is not protected under privacy law anywhere, and neither is a timestamp. The man's employment status however, should have been.

    I don't mind the level of outrage, just that so much of it is misdirected in it's entirety.
  • trixie
    I have just finished reading about 250 comments (out of 300+ and growing) at the so called "apology" post.

    What Mr. Greenbaum fails to understand is that the outrage that has exploded over this incident is NOT in defense of the vulgar-word commentator. The outrage is directed where it should be: at Mr. Greenbaum for being the thought police, using his profession to get someone fired, violating the privacy policy of the website, his gleeful, snide and moral-high high horse attitude, and his utter hypocrisy at turning around and calling the guy at jacka$$ on his twitter feed.
  • TariAkpodiete
    The St. Louis Post-Dispatch comments are chock full of racist, sexist and homophobic comments, not to mention flaming rants. And yet Greenbaum decided to moderate a one-word frat-boy type of comment in such a way that he's committed a clear violation of the paper's privacy policy?

    “We will not share individual user information with third parties unless the user has specifically approved the release of that information. In some cases, however, we may provide information to legal officials as described in “Compliance with Legal Process” below.”

    The racist, sexist and homophobic comments are so vile and so commonly ignored by Greenbaum that there's actually a site - http://stltomorrow.org/ - and facebook group detailing the situation - http://www.facebook.com/pages/STLtomorrow/20066...

    Long gone are the days when journalists went to jail because they would not give up a name, and yet, here is someone, a 'director' no less, calling up and offering enough info to identify someone who lost their job over nonsense. And then he gloated about it. Repeatedly. Both in responding to comments and in a blog post. Also, that 'apology' is not an apology, but a further justification.

    By the way, this is two separate issues: 1. what Greenbaum did and has continued to do, and 2. what the school did. Also, we don't really know if the person really did resign or was fired, and we all know that some people are often given the choice to resign rather than be fired. We only have Greenbaum's sketchy word that the person resigned voluntarily.

    Back on September 3, 2009, Greebaum posted this:

    6 reasons we’re lazy about story comments
    http://www.igreenbaum.com/2009/09/6-reasons-wer...

    And apparently, he's not getting much support from media pros in his area (registration required)

    STL Media Message Board
    http://stlmedia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=p...

    We all make mistakes, but Greenbaum seems not willing to admit his, let alone learn from them. I had to chuckle at one comment which suggested that he retake whatever test he took to get his 'Director of Social Media' job, and speculated that perhaps he got it because he had the most Facebook friends. Seriously though, apparently Greenbaum has near three decades of experience as a reporter. He should have know better, and he should have done better.
  • I live in St. Louis and read, or used to read, this site and there is more to this story.

    First of all, the one word was in response to a question: what is the most unusual thing you've ever eaten? As others have pointed out, the response that was typed was obviou given such a silly question.

    In addition the St. Louis Today web site is notorious for its being technically challenged. It's not usual for a comment not to go through the first time, so you re-submit. The person's first comment was deleted immediately, the second a couple of minutes later. Rather than assume the person was being belligerent, the site should have assumed that the person resubmitted either by accident, or thinking something happened with the first submittal.

    Another reason many of us who read the site are angry is that the site has actively defended comments that are racist, sexist, bigoted, and homophobic. Blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic, and bigoted. Yet, here they pursued a comment that was, at worst, mildly vulgar, and even understandable considering the question.

    Even then, the site could have deleted the comment a second time (you know how easy this is with Wordpress). And blocked this specific poster. Or added the word to the Wordpress blacklist. Or done any number of things.

    What the site did, was violate its own privacy policy, and then Greenbaum bragged about it after the effect.

    The only lesson learned from this event is you can't trust the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. You certainly can't trust Greenbaum.
  • Cam
    I love that the P-D goes ahead an embeds an video complete with "colorful" language: http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/pictures/video...

    Hypocrites.
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